January 5, 2010 82 Comments

Depends How You Define Value

Seth Godin says Anil Dash has discovered bullhorns are overrated. I agree that bullhorns, as a shouting tool, are not very useful. I disagree that having a larger twitter following is not useful. It depends what you do with them.

I have a hundred thousand followers on Twitter. I follow back about 93,000. I don’t see most of what you tweet about. I use search and lists to keep up with what I can, but the software API can’t even serve all your tweets to me.

But there’s value in that number. I get value in the following ways:

  • You find the good stuff for me, so I can learn more.
  • You promote social causes that I support if they resonate with you.
  • You visit the great voices I share with you, growing their audience and potential for relationship.
  • You help spread important news like Amber alerts fast.
  • You support the better of my posts. (Heck, sometimes you support my posts that I don’t even like.)
  • You keep me in the loop and talk with me when we both have a moment.

I get tons of value from Twitter every day. Heck, just today, I mentioned on Twitter that I’ve made the Roger Smith Hotel my exclusive hotel in NYC, and that spurred a new conversation with a hotel in Boston. I spoke to the folks at Legal Seafoods, after they noticed I recommended them to a friend visiting Boston. Now, they’re going out to buy my book, and so I offered to swing by and sign it and talk.

I get value every day from Twitter. It’s my serendipity engine. It’s my liner notes.

Where Seth is right, however, is that bullhorns are stupid and useless.

But no value in Twitter? Not on my watch.

ChrisBrogan.com runs on the Genesis Framework

Genesis Theme Framework

The Genesis Framework empowers you to quickly and easily build incredible websites with WordPress. Whether you're a novice or advanced developer, Genesis provides you with the secure and search-engine-optimized foundation that takes WordPress to places you never thought it could go.

With automatic theme updates and world-class support included, Genesis is the smart choice for your WordPress website or blog.

Become a StudioPress Affiliate

Newer Comments →
  • johnrossharvey

    hence why Twitter is my third word (inspired by Chris') on my blog at http://threeforcesofevil.blogspot.com

  • http://blog.optimalupgrades.ca Elie

    I was initially reluctant to join the Twitter crowd, for similar reasons to those voiced by Seth Godin. But I did join, and as you say, you can find value by searching through what's posted, looking for trends, and sending news out faster than any other means to a huge number of people.

    If you enter the world of Twitter uninformed, then it will prove to be a site full of people talking about the waiter at lunch and spam bots pushing useless products. But if you go in with your eyes open and aware of the potential, then it can be an extremely valuable tool in the world of communication.

  • http://twittercism.com Sheamus

    I thought a similar thing. To be honest, I think you have to take anything Seth says about Twitter with a very hefty pinch as he doesn't use it in any kind of proactive way (as I'm sure you know, he has a feed for his blog, and that's it). And if you don't use it, why are you writing about it?

    As for Anil's thoughts, I posted directly about that on his blog. The reason why he's seen little gain from being on the SUL is that he's a complete unknown to 99% of the people who follow him based on Twitter's recommendation when they first sign up. Even though they follow him, they're likely paying little to no attention to him in their streams.

    That's very different from being prompted to followed brands and celebrities, who are already known to the new user, and therefore get a little gift from Twitter. And when *they* pop up in the stream, the name or logo is instantly recognisable, which means they're more likely to be read, retweeted and any links therein happily clicked.

  • http://twittercism.com Sheamus

    I thought a similar thing. To be honest, I think you have to take anything Seth says about Twitter with a very hefty pinch as he doesn't use it in any kind of proactive way (as I'm sure you know, he has a feed for his blog, and that's it). And if you don't use it, why are you writing about it?

    As for Anil's thoughts, I posted directly about that on his blog. The reason why he's seen little gain from being on the SUL is that he's a complete unknown to 99% of the people who follow him based on Twitter's recommendation when they first sign up. Even though they follow him, they're likely paying little to no attention to him in their streams.

    That's very different from being prompted to followed brands and celebrities, who are already known to the new user, and therefore get a little gift from Twitter. And when *they* pop up in the stream, the name or logo is instantly recognisable, which means they're more likely to be read, retweeted and any links therein happily clicked.

  • http://ruinunes.com Rui Nunes

    Thats the problem when some theme is not completely and clearly explained. I'm sure Seth agrees with you. But it wrote a bit differently.

  • davidmhuffman

    Seth has never been big on Twitter anyway, he just uses it to deliver his blog links and in one podcast I heard stating that “time spenting tweeting is time he could be spending on other things…”

    I disagreed with his post this morning, but it really did not surprise me.

  • http://www.shefaly-yogendra.com/ Shefaly

    +1 to that (although I am not amongst the 93000). Physical goods/ in-person services versus scalable, technology-enabled services. The trouble with bullhorns is that with distance, or in adverse weather conditions, the signal (content) attenuates. Laws and rules may also prevent one from using a bullhorn in several places where one may have a greater chance of sending the message to many people. So not too many receive the message and cannot at any rate pass it on. They cannot magnify the weakened signal and we all know about Chinese whispers. On Twitter, otoh, one can retweet, share, disagree on your blog and tweet about the disagreement – at low transaction costs and the original content and the discussion ensuing can both expand and create value. It may not be realised by you or someone directly connected with you, and you may not even know where the value was appropriated. But nor can one with a bullhorn.

  • ahockley

    Anil notes that his large number of followers don't provide much value. You state that your followers are valuable.

    It's not the number of followers that matter. It's who they are, and how one chooses (or chooses not) to engage.

  • http://www.newoptimistclub.com newoptimistclub

    I thought Seth was saying it didn't matter how many people you talk to, it only matters how many listen and in Seth's model, the first thousand tell the next 1,000 and on and on.

    Now that I've written that statement, I do wonder if the bullhorn might not be a better communicator as the message, oft repeated, might be reinterpreted like the telephone game.

  • stephsammons

    Chris, I totally agree with you. I believe that a large Twitter following provides perceived value in that it gives you instant credibility/clout in your area of expertise, especially with new users who have no other knowledge of how to value people on Twitter. Obviously you have to cultivate that following and keep them on board. The more opportunity you have to be heard by the right followers, the more likely your personal brand and message will spread.

  • http://www.firsttracksmarketing.com Matt Nelson

    Wow. 100K followers and you follow 93K back, that is insane! I thought it was challenging with a measly 1K of followers. But I do agree with your assessment above. Yes a bull-horn is useless these days, and I (as you do) learn so much from Twitter every day and make new valuable connections with people who care about what I care about and help make me a better marketing and development professional every day.

  • simpliflying

    Chris, good point about “loudness” not being helpful. And another good points about how you find value from your six figure Twitter followers (is that better than a six figure salary these days? =p )

    Though, I think the most important of the points you mention is around listening. Among your Twitter followers, you listen to those who add value to you. A lot more listen to what you have to say. But those who become evangelists are again those with whom you connect well.

    Though I've not had the luxury of a six figure Twitter following on @simpliflying (yet!), I've met new people in the airline industry from around the world who have so much aviation experience that they've probably forgotten more than I can ever learn. Now, being new to the industry (<2yrs), this is heaven for me!

    And it is by listening to these people, sharing my thoughts with them and seeking feedback that I've grown as an individual. It's a two way relationship.

    So yes, bullhorns in isolation don't work. But if you add sincere listening to it, they do work.

  • http://www.tommartin.typepad.com Tom Martin

    Chris

    Cheers to you for this one… it's so PC to say “numbers don't matter” but as you justly point out, there is value in numbers… you just have to see it.

    @TomMartin

  • Mel Webster

    You hit it right on the head. You can definitely follow and be followed by thousands of “useless” folks on Twitter. Or, you can follow or be followed by thousands who deliver value. However, even if you follow lots of “good” people, there is still a lot of filtering required to discover the gold that is there.

  • http://www.WCNgroup.com/ Michael

    The title says it all, “Depends how you define value”. I would also add “for that specific activity/strategy”. Bullhorns grab your attention but what you do with that person's attention is the key and again, depends on the defined goal/objectives.

    Your bullet points define the value of Social Media and I would add, “You provide valuable feedback when needed”. Finally, I do not always agree with Seth but his bullhorn is louder than most.

  • davastewart

    I found this blog through Twitter, have met clients there, made friends there and learned about my community there, but I don't have (comparatively) many followers nor am I followed by a huge number of people.

    Twitter isn't a bullhorn for me, but it is a fun and useful tool that connects me to many more people than I might find otherwise.

  • http://www.mikestenger.com Mike Stenger

    Agreed. 'Nuff said

  • http://twitter.com/srndur wendy smith

    everyone has a different level of comfort on how many friends/followers/inner circle/advisors they have. I know several people who will only share with a small number of people. They're not wrong, just different than me.
    Thank you for sharing on how you feel comfortable following a great number of those who follow you and how you make it work for you.

  • sethgodin

    Where's the part where I said Twitter has no value, Chris?

    Thanks for reading. I'll try to be more clear next time…

  • http://twitter.com/NikiBGD Danica Radisic

    This brings to mind something my 10 year old said about how his generation views what we call 'virtual' and 'real life' – “The online world is both real and virtual, it just depends what you use it for.”

    I suppose we could say that our respective attitudes toward Twitter and other online social tools are precisely what defines its value for us. “Serendipity tool”… can't agree with that entirely, but I like it!

  • http://aaronhoos.com/ Aaron Hoos

    Chris, you're exaclty right. Twitter isn't a bullhorn. It's an interaciton tool and you do a fantastic job of showing how it SHOULD be used.

    But Seth's advice needs to be followed by the peole who use Twitter as a bullhorn… the ones who send me “one teeth whitening trick discovered by a mom” tweets.

  • http://twitter.com/PetRescueBarbie Lisa Scarbrough

    I fell in love with the Roger Smith Hotel at the Web 2.0 Expo primarily because of the restaurant there. I love a place that serves a stack of bacon as an appetizer! I hope the next time I go to NYC I get to stay there.

  • http://twitter.com/designerdaze Harold Thompson

    So you're saying if my tweet gets through to you I'm a lucky guy. More of a one way street. Could I say that's not everyone's experience. To add dollar value you have to be on the radar otherwise all you have is some dinner conversation. The value I receive has been mostly informational but as yet it hasn't made me a dime. My biggest problem with social media is, there are too many people fishing off the same pier. I'm guessing this will all get sorted out in time. Everybody's mileage probably varies on this one.

  • http://twitter.com/katgordon Katherine M. Gordon

    Right you are, Mr. Brogan! Just two days ago, The NY Times published a terrific article called “Why Twitter Will Endure.” My favorite quote from the article's author: “I’m in narrative on more things in a given moment than I ever thought possible, and instead of spending a half-hour surfing in search of illumination, I get a sense of the day’s news and how people are reacting to it in the time that it takes to wait for coffee at Starbucks.”

  • http://twitter.com/katgordon Katherine M. Gordon

    Right you are, Mr. Brogan! Just two days ago, The NY Times published a terrific article called “Why Twitter Will Endure.” My favorite quote from the article's author: “I’m in narrative on more things in a given moment than I ever thought possible, and instead of spending a half-hour surfing in search of illumination, I get a sense of the day’s news and how people are reacting to it in the time that it takes to wait for coffee at Starbucks.”

  • http://daughterofcancer.wordpress.com/ Talia from Sparkeo.com

    That's really funny. This is the second blog post abotu this topic I've seen today. I think the problem is that people assume that Twitter/Facebook/Latest-cool-thing will be a quickfix for everything.

    I have found immense value for Twitter both on a personal and professional level: Found jobs through Twitter (twice!), gotten recommendations instead of performing searches (I'd rather hear why my followers use a product rather than just look it up myself – better feedback), and on a professional level, Twitter has helped take care of problems efficiently and quickly, and helped know where the conversation is, both about our company and our competition.

    I think people just need to readjust their expectations of each medium and what they think they should (and need and can) get out of it.
    So I agree. :-)

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Definitely so. It depends how you fish. In my case, I'm not exactly looking for dollars from Twitter. I'm looking for relationships that translate to dollars (or not) at some point. That's been extremely effective.

    As for the one way street, I can't change the API. Twitter can.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Your son should be on stages.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    “Anil Dash has discovered that having ten times as many Twitter followers generates approximately zero times as much value.”

    So, maybe it's the number of followers part? Maybe I didn't write my rebuttal fast enough. God you're fast. : )

    Congrats on the iPhone app, by the way, sir.

  • http://twitter.com/foodservicecom Foodservice.com®

    The difference is that people choose to listen to Chris Brogan. This isn't the case with most Twitter users – where the goal is to ramp up as many followers as possible just to show how popular they are. I believe that Seth is referring to the latter.

  • http://www.beingthebest.ca/ Lynda

    It very much depends on how you define value, you are so right. I had an interesting discussion with Mr. Godin about why he doesn't follow anyone on Twitter who follows him. Basically he uses it as a 140 character tool for sending out his wisdom. That might work for Mr. Godin but I want conversation. I think there is much more that I can learn and having as many followers as possible from as many walks of life just brings me experiences that could never be gotten in any other way. For me, value is a two way street. I hope I can help someone, but I'm also hoping someone can help me.

    My best working relationships have been with clients who understood they have to help me learn their business and I can help them find online marketing success.

  • http://www.benspark.com BenSpark

    Twitter for me is sometimes the fastest way to find out about what is being said online, from blog posts to new technologies if it is on twitter it is something that I'm going to see. While I don't quite have the firehose of information shooting at me that you do, I do find that following back many people does bring me value.

  • http://copywriteink.blogspot.com Rich Becker

    Good call Chris.

    Where Seth is apparently confused is in the use of the tool. Sure, Twitter can be used as a blow horn or it can be used as a conversation tool. And with more public relations firms handling Twitter accounts for their clients, blow horn momentum is moving forward. It's best to tune it out.

    Unfortunately, Seth misses out on the application much like a man in 1920s who refused to drive a car but concluded that the cars go to fast for their own good. Sure, he was backed up by evidence that there were far fewer horse accidents in comparison, but apparently dismissed all evidence that some people were careful drivers.

    Best,
    Rich

  • http://www.rockandrollmama.com rockandrollmama

    I think the value can also be measured by how skilled the user is at noting serendipity- sometimes, the connections that lead to business may be several weeks or conversations out. It may take a few degrees of separation to find the breadcrumbs that lead to a certain trail…but I'm always bemused when I do.

    Twitter takes a small world and makes it a downright microcosm- and that's the value for me. Not very interaction leads to direct business, but it all leads to value in some larger sense.

    You're doing it right.:)

  • http://mydarabell.com/ Dara Bell

    I read the Seths blog and I thought it really was random, he feels that spreading yourself around these platforms hampers influence. He is wrong, it works in a way that will not be disscusssed by anyone else it allows you access to anyone. It gives everyone here the access to anyone. That is refreshing.

    I think it purely a business decision he has made privately, if I owned a social networkng site I would not use Twitter, he is product evangelist for Squidoo. Kevin Rose uses We Follow but would be use another follow service I wonder I doubt it.

  • http://twitter.com/designerdaze Harold Thompson

    Yes I realize that the API is out of your control. I can't imagine having that many followers, if I did I would have to step up the game. I am a lucky guy btw my reply made it to you and you replied back, which I was surprised by due to the aforementioned problems. Hoping to hit my own stride on twitter at some point. Thanks for writing too.!!!

  • http://www.derekdevries.org/ Derek DeVries

    Indeed; my interpretation was that Seth was saying the quality of your followers (and how you interact with them) is more important than the quantity. I don't think he was devaluing Twitter per se.

  • johnribbler

    Years ago in Las Vegas, you could pick up a house phone in any casino, ask to page someone, and the person's name would be broadcast throughout the building. They helped you locate people quickly, rather than wasting time looking around, so that you spent as little time away from the tables as possible.

    But, I had a friend — and I'm sure he was not the only one — who went from casino to casino paging himself so that everyone in Vegas would get to know who he was.

    The only difference between Twitter and the casino house phones is that the intended purpose of the paging system may have been a little clearer.

    @ribblog

  • http://www.mashable.com Brett Petersel

    I just have to say: Roger Smith Hotel FTW.

    Cheers, Chris

  • http://weblogredux.com Hal Brown

    I read Seth's message with a different POV. As some have already pointed out, it's about quality not quantity followers. Just today I cleaned out 'approximately a bunch' of auto-followers who will never see me or hear my bullhorn. We have nothing in common, and will never share anything.

    How do you know that sheer numbers (100K) are providing a better experience than say 25K followers? That implies that several million followers would be even better?
    Just trying to follow the logic with this.

    Incidentally, I get a lot from your tweets, as well as from Twitter in general. I wouldn't know what to do with 100K followers.

    Thanks for the observation.

  • http://dashes.com/anil/ anildash

    Chris, thanks for the considered feedback. While Seth did a great job of amplifying one point in my post, I was definitely not arguing that 100,000 earned followers (as you have) isn't valuable. Instead, I was saying that a million people who just accepted the default suggested users when signing up for Twitter is not valuable.

    Most of my followers are unearned, which makes those meaningless relationships. Your followers have chosen to connect with you, and that makes all the difference.

    To the few people who asked if my experience wasn't representative because I'm, essentially, a nobody, we actually have some additional data that we can use to judge. According to Starbucks, The Today Show, and others, even huge brands don't get more value from having millions of uninterested followers.

  • http://toddrjordan.com/thebroadbrush tojosan

    Blowhorns overrated?

    Some of your points echo well with my own sentiments:
    * You find the good stuff for me, so I can learn more.
    * You promote social causes that I support if they resonate with you.
    * You visit the great voices I share with you, growing their audience and potential for relationship.
    * You support the better of my posts. (Heck, sometimes you support my posts that I don’t even like.)
    * You keep me in the loop and talk with me when we both have a moment.

    Adding:
    * You help me promote social causes that resonate with you.
    * You act as a multi-faceted filter on the news and ideas.
    * You reflect the best in me back.

    I've kept my numbers much lower than Chris, yet I continue to see the hottest topics and trends, find out about worthy causes and more. This is the effect of overlapping and resonating streams, which act like waves. Boosts, interference, reversals.

    This may not seem obvious if you don't follow a certain critical mass of people, along with a good mix of people as well. Chris, you're doing both well.

    Cheers to another thoughtful post.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Ahhhhh, it's THAT post. Interesting. I hadn't swung by to check out that post yet, Anil. Bad me. Bad me. I've heard many interesting points in both directions.

    Wait, you're a nobody? Um… You're one of the people who BUILT this current world (okay, the worlds I type into). Let's put that one on the shelf.

    About the unearned, I think we can agree. Just “having” followers isn't that useful. It's like magazine subscribers. It's having ENGAGED followers. I agree there.

    Man, sorry we didn't chat at Web 2.0. New resolution for 2010.

  • http://Twitter.com/Ed Ed

    Anil,
    If you're a nobody, then I quit today :)
    (I think your voice is treasured).

    Otherwise, your post and comment above, are right on!

    And Chris has the most genuinely earned large Twitter following on the site.
    I can attest to it after watching him daily for 3 years.

  • http://www.lawbill.com/blog Steve Miller

    With only ~2,000 Followers, Twitter has generated new business for me from all over the world. As a certified consultant for PCLaw™, Time Matters® and Amicus Attorney law firm practice management software, my business model mandates that new customers find me at the lowest possible cost. My Google listing is #2, right behind the software company which spends many millions to achieve its name recognition, while I didn't spend a dime. I only wish the best for the Twitter inventors and hope that Google buys them for a lot of money.

  • http://www.gradontripp.com gradontripp

    Your last paragraph highlights why social media hasn't really changed the dynamic of promotion. A Boston hotel reaching out to you versus Jeff Cutler, Bob Collins, Doug Haslam, or any number of other Boston-based social media pros — who are actually in Boston far more often than you (surely because of your work schedule) and regularly throw events in the city — shows that celebrity (the bullhorn) counts more than focused relevance.

  • http://www.newageleadgeneration.com/ Al Brocious

    Sounds more like you agree with exactly what Seth is saying. Chris you have gone through several Twitter following purges if I am not mistaken. Your numbers are large but not the largest those that want to listen keep following. Those are the people that choose to listen. The actual number is not the issue, for most businesses. Local small businesses would be happy with 300 or 500 listeners. Perhaps followers is not the right term? Maybe we should call it listeners?

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Quite an interesting observation. The bullhorn still matters. Hmmm. I see another post. Just not me.

  • christinakatz

    Okay, this is spooky. I think I have to read your blog less or something. I was thinking about a trip to NYC and wondering if you had a hotel you recommend…and then I saw this post within 24 hours. Clearly that makes me a fan. Clearly, I read your blog too much. ;) Or maybe I read my Google Reader too much…that's possible. I've become addicted to it, I think. But the thing about bullhorns to keep in mind, when we are talking about most people, is that for many even just saying who they are and what they do is hard. So when you say no bullhorns, you may scare people from speaking up at all. I want to represent the people who had their voices squashed out of them and say: it's okay. Say who you are and what you do. It's a welcome part of the dialogue.

  • http://twtrcoach.com TwtrCoach

    Anil ended up on the Twitter Suggested Users List.. which in a way got him to see bullhorns as overrated..

    But don't all the directories pretty much contain the same suggestions.. must be a lot of bullhorns out there..

    Some of them is probably stupid and useless.. But still some of the bullhorns is among the ones most mentioned and referred too.. so must be some value in there.

    Don't this just lead us up to the discussion about 'Quality vs Quanity'..??

    And yes I find value in Chris's Tweets and articles..

    Quote: “But no value in Twitter? Not on my watch.” @ChrisBrogan .. I like this one..

    Cheers.. Are

Newer Comments →
GetSocial