Relationships are a Choice in Marketing

Chris Brogan and Steve GarfieldChris Brogan and Matt Holt

You don’t have to build relationships to sell things. McDonalds is sinking over $100 Million USD into their McCafe program, because they expect sales of those products to account for $1 Billion in sales. Do you think they give a rat’s anus about getting to know me? Not at all. Will their efforts work? I’m guessing yes. Even if they miss that Billion mark, it will be a pretty decent ROI in the end for their efforts. (We like coffee.)

But relationships are a choice. I can choose to build relationships because I want a longer term sales experience with you. For instance, I was talking with @moniquewade on Twitter, and she was asking me if the Trust Agents community on Facebook was just a way to market the book. I replied, “The idea is this: relationships sell better than typical marketing. If you are PART of Trust Agents, it’s better than selling.”

I went on to say, “Exactly so. I’m not selling a book. That’s just the byproduct, the souvenir. I’m sharing access and interaction. For free!”

My Marketing Mindset for Trust Agents


First, pay attention: I’m talking about me, my marketing mindset, and specifically that which relates to Trust Agents, my upcoming book with Julien.

In thinking about marketing this book, Julien and I built a Trust Agents community over on Facebook. It (like a lot of what I do) is an experiment. We wondered if people wanted to talk about trust and how different trust is in the online world. As of this writing, we have over 1500 people participating in conversations, and sharing their thoughts.

Why bother, if all I want to do is sell a book? But that’s it. I don’t want to sell a book. I want to build a relationship that lasts much longer than a book. Yes, I’d love it if you buy a book. Julien and I worked very hard on it. We put a lot of our beliefs into it. We’ve spent months working on it, and we’d love for you to buy anywhere from one to 200 copies. But that’s not the point.

We want to know you. We want to talk with you. We want you to call us out when we’re wrong, and to tell us how to improve. We want to hear how you’re doing, and we want to interact.

Why? Because we feel that a trust agent uses the secret skill that we call being a “Human Artist,” and that knowing how best to build relationships of value is something best demonstrated instead of just being this thing we wrote about in a book.

Relationship marketing takes lots more effort, but I’m banking on the fact that you and I have much more between us than your $20 for our book.

Is One Better Than the Other?

Hell no, and punch the person who tells you it’s all about the relationships. When I drive into McDonalds, I order a large iced coffee with milk and one Splenda. I don’t care what McDonalds does wrong or right. They don’t care about me. It’s just a transaction, and it works just great. I am VERY aware of their new ad campaign, and I’m sure it’s driving more sales. It works great for them.

Could I sell Trust Agents without building relationships? Hell yes. There are lots of ways to mechanically get that book moved. Is that how I’ve chosen to do it? No. I much prefer the relationships.

The point is simple: choose. If you want to build relationships as part of your marketing, that’s very do-able. If you want to have a more transactional approach, that’s fine, too. But don’t attempt relationships and then hope for transactional returns.

And always be clear on your ask. If you’re building relationships ONLY to market, that’s just a longer haul transaction. Be clear if you’re asking someone for something, or if you’re just making friends. It helps on all fronts.

Thoughts From You?

What’s your take?

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  • frankdickinson

    I have truly benefited in my “market” from building relationships – yes – but more importantly I have benefited as a person from the relationships.

    That's what ultimately matters most.

    Thanks Chris for being you.

    Peace,
    Frank Dickinson

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=715221385 facebook-715221385

    Hmm. Maybe you don't have to build relationships to do business like Starbucks or McDonalds or even Skittles but that kind of production line business isn't the only model. You have to look at the kind of business you're in and decide whether you give a rats ptootie about what your relationship with your customer is.
    Do you spend a lot of phone time talking to your clients to get feedback to make your product better? Do you call people and ask them for their business or share the latest gizmo? Do you rely on a referral network for leads and information? Do one one one conversations about your product or service make the close better than a billboard?
    Then baby you are ALL about relationships.

  • http://www.netwitsthinktank.com frank barry

    It's like the @GuyKawasaki Twitter model
    http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2009/07/how-i-tweet

    vs. the @chrisbrogan model
    http://www.chrisbrogan.com/spread-your-wings-ge

    I'm glad you pointed out the other side of the coin. It's OK to be Starbucks or McDonalds. They have a model that works for them. If it stops working at some point they will need to change, but in the mean time the world is fine with how they do it. Those that are not go to mom-and-pop coffee shops. It's a choice.

    http://twitter.com/franswaa

  • http://twitter.com/You2Gov Alan W. Silberberg

    Relationships are key to most successful ventures. In an increasingly fractured and high speed world, it is critical to make and maintain real world relationships. I find that people I have made the effort to stay in touch with and maintain relationships are far more likely to be responsive to business propositions and or making key introductions. Thanks Chris for sharing.

  • http://www.thewaythatyouwander.com/ Nate

    I am with you on this. I could have created several ebooks and put up several long copy sales pages and be making money right now. Instead I've chosen to take time to create some relationships that could help me in the long run. Plus, I hate long copy sales pages!

    I did well with affiliate marketing for a while, but hated every second of it. I like getting to know people, and the most I was learning about them was their name and what type of credit card they had on my Clickbank sales reports.

    I like that you've chosen to market yourself and Trust Agents the way you have. Great post!

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  • http://www.alexandralevit.com/ Alexandra Levit

    Hi Chris, I think the reason relationships are so important in our line of work is that we are selling a person (ourselves), unlike McDonalds, which is selling a product. Products tend to be more cut and dry and so it's possible for marketing engagements to be more transactional. As an author, if I am interested in my readers, then they will be interested in me back, and hopefully they will follow my work over time.

    Looking forward to the book!

    Best,

    Alexandra Levit
    Business/Workplace Author and Speaker
    http://www.alexandralevit.com

  • http://twitter.com/jenn_lee_ca jenn_lee_ca

    This is a great post. Its not all black and white. The trick is to understand which choices are best for you or your organization.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    love it love it love it. : )

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Take it another direction: what about cars? What about news?

  • http://thoughtbythought.net Tre

    Thanks much for the further explains…eager to get involved in both the community and in the actual book…building trust with others for me is always about sensing their motives…weighing them…deciding if I choose to grow with that kind of thinking. appreciate always your thoughts on how to interact/relate with others b/c you bring the human heart to all fronts and that is such a vital contribution. thanks muchly.

  • http://www.pimpyourmarketing.com ChrisDonaldson

    I believe both are about relationships. One is a relationship with a product (a consistently ok cup of coffee or fillet of fish) – the other a relationship with people (your local barista who knows exactly how you like it). This is the differential in my opinion – and yes both have a place. And both can be acheived: look at Amazon: they care about the conversation and your personality (i.e. your collection of data points) precisely because they can push the transactional relationship and close the sale. Yes, it's automated. But yes, people are speaking to one another.

    Provoking post as usual.

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  • http://twitter.com/TomRedwine Tom Redwine

    Speaking of Trust, I trusted CB enough to use my twitter login to post this comment. I Trust Chris FTW!

    Now here's the question that's bugging me, but I've not see the answer… yet. (Still digging thru the FB site, dude. Point me there if I missed it.) How do you manage this nebula of relationships, still keeping in mind you wanna have that personal touch, given the amount/number/enormity of the relationships?

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Oh no! I'm going to turn into one of “those guys.” The answer, as they always say, is in the book. Naw, I'm not like that.

    Here's beating Dunbar's number, a post where I address that.

  • http://ariherzog.com Ari Herzog

    When you write McDonalds “doesn't care about me,” how is that healthy? Isn't the goal for multinational corporate McDonalds to emulate you and Julien and care about their customers? Why have your mind made up?

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    I guess I'm saying that the transaction to buy coffee doesn't require a relationship. They don't HAVE to care about me in the specific sense. It's not McDonalds' goal to care about me. It's their goal to make money, as that is the goal of every corporation, regardless of mission statements or other materials.

    That's what I mean.

  • designamigo

    A single person cannot do everything; for many services we pay. we prefer paying to someone who we know (probably little knowing is little trusting) than someone who might even do a better job (for even less)
    I still don't understand how one can genuinely build relationships ; get frnds ; while ur ultimate aim is to market ur product / service.

    Relationship marketing is not a new thing, it has been there for centuries. the milk man who inquires about your work. the vegetable guy who knows what you want to buy; who suggests that the greens are fresh. In real world , relationship marketing is different than online. In online world , relations build upon comments /tweets/facebook gives-> regular traffic -> more ranking -> more sales !!

  • http://ariherzog.com Ari Herzog

    You don't want to sell copies of your book? Why distribute it through a publisher and not set it up for people to “steal my book” online? See my point?

    You may not be the same as McDonalds, but you want people to enter into transactions and buy your book (or otherwise read it) and learn from it and share that knowledge elsewhere. Right?

    In other words, suppose I don't know you, never heard your name before, and stumble across your book on some bookshelf. I thumb through it, looks interesting, and I buy it. How is this transaction different than your McDonalds analogy?

    It's not your goal to care about those who buy your books, is it? Rather, it's your goal to care about those who opt to join your ecosystem of a blog, a Facebook page, a Twitter update.

  • http://www.kherize5.com Suzanne Vara/ Lvadgal

    The large corporations as a whole do not care but what about the individuals who work for them. Do they care? Do we want them to care and build a relationship with us? If you go to starbucks every day around the same time so you see the same staff there and get the same thing day in and day out, would it be more relationship building if the person behind the counter saw you walking in and started making your coffee and had it ready when you got to the counter or said to you 'the usual.” Here the employee cares and builds relationships with customers where the corporation cares about traffic and sales and not that this customer got this coffee at the same time again today.

    “And always be clear on your ask. If you’re building relationships ONLY to market, that’s just a longer haul transaction. Be clear if you’re asking someone for something, or if you’re just making friends. It helps on all fronts.”

    Very well said as no-one will fault you for not wanting to build relationships but be honest up front about your intentions.

    @Lvadgal/Suzanne Vara

  • http://blog.eyeviewdigital.com EyeView

    @Ari Herzog: It's the difference between Chris selling his book directly and Borders/Barnes & Noble/Amazon selling his book. Chris wants a relationship with the sale because, he says, the relationship is worth more to him. Retailers prefer to measure their returns in cash money, not love (or trust, or buzz, or any number of other abstracts).

    My issue is slightly different. This whole “relationships” thing, seems to be totally unscalable. I get that @comcastcares has made a difference to their brand even for people not on Twitter by being a force for good in the corporate world, but I can't fathom how a Facebook group of 1500 brown-nosed Broganiacs can help you become the next Gladwellian breakthrough (yes, I realize that's not your goal, but try and translate the metaphor to other businesses with actual products).

    The business of relationships is great, but only if it serves the business of business. Willy Loman was “well-liked”, but he wasn't much of a salesman (SPOILER ALERT: He dies).

  • http://anjamerret.com/ Anja Merret

    Good point. But I don't agree that it's an either or. It's just a different kind of relationship. I certainly think that people feel something for the brands they support. I don't see it ever just being transactional. People are too emotional to take out feelings out of their purchase.

    You yourself have a trust relationship with McDonalds. You trust they are not going to poison you with their coffee, that the coffee will taste the same whichever franchise you visit and that is has certain standards of service and cleanliness amongst other factors.

  • http://twitter.com/calgreg greg cryns

    If I may play devil's advocate (again), if your goal is to sell a lot of books and to further your realtionship building, have you considered getting Mashable or Darren Rowse or someone else with a huge and loyal following to recommend your book?

    If your purpose is to promote social networking, certainly the more people who read the book the merrier? I don't think taking the McDonald's route (regular advertising) in addition to taking the high road, so to speak, is counter-productive or against the rules that are still being worked out as I see it. The rules follow results, no?

    I am offended when people say the “only” way to do things is through social networking or through paid advertising. There is no Bible published yet on this and I am not looking forward to its publication because I doubt anyone has a lock on the truth, whatever that may be.

  • Victoria Bianchini

    At the risk of using an overused word, what's refreshing about what you are doing is the transparency. “yes,” you say, you want to sell books – heck, you worked hard on it, and you're honest about that, but there's no doubt you are constantly giving so much to the community for free — making yourself so available and accessible.

    We can choose to interact with you, take from you, give to you, buy your book or not. Personally, I've only been following you for a few weeks, but I'm honestly more likely to pick your book over another because … I trust you.

  • JamieLee

    We are so immersed in the language of relationships, it's challenging to admit that some interactions can be purely transactional. However … two points/questions:

    1. Although McD's doesn't give a rat's anus about getting to know you personally, they certainly understand that they need to know their customers in aggregate via good, old-fashioned market research. Customer perceptions about a brand or company make or break that company – if not today, then tomorrow. I wonder what business benefits transactional companies like McD's, the utility company, or – gasp! – the tax collector would see if they chose to build relationships.

    2. Maybe this is just a function of good branding, but I feel what I call an “ambient relationship” with some brands simply because they talk and walk in ways that align with my personal beliefs. Life is Good, for instance – I don't have a relationship with this company beyond a friendly exchange with the retail help the one or two times a year that I make a purchase. I am not engaged with them on twitter or facebook, and I don't subscribe to any newsletter. Still, I feel a sense of connection through shared values, the charities they support, and the events that they sponsor. Does this make me more “fan” than “friend?” How do you differentiate between the two when you're talking about business relationships? Is there a cetain level of one-on-one engagement that must be reached before you can legitimately call the relationship a two-way street? Is a friend better than a fan, or is an evangelistic fan more valuable than a friend? How does trust factor in? I don't know anyone at Life Is Good personally, but if the company did something that went against the things they stand for today, I'd definitely feel like a trust had been broken, and I'd “break up” with them.

    I don't have the answers, just wanted to ask the questions.
    Thanks, as always, for getting the conversation started.

  • http://johnhaydon.com johnhaydon

    It looks like email lists are not the only thing people “opt-in” to.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    I don't get it. Can you elaborate?

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  • http://twitter.com/allenweiss Allen Weiss

    The real issue is that you need to first determine who wants a relationship and who doesn't. What most companies don't understand is that not all customers want close relationships. You can't just determine for yourself whether you want a relationship or not, because by definition it takes two parties. So, the bottom line is that while relationships are a choice, it's not your choice alone.

  • http://PresentDayNomads.com/ Rasheed

    But don’t attempt relationships and then hope for transactional returns.

    I love this. You are so right on. Thank you.

  • http://www.fyindout.com/ Brett Kopf

    Hi Chris,

    Great post on relationships & thanks to @LizMarshall for passing it along. I'm glad you acknowledged the difference between relationships and transactions. With Social Media, you hit the nail on the head with building relationships, integrity is vital.

    What if you have a fantastic product/service and don't feel like hiring a full on PR company…you want to build relationships yourself. Technically, if you go this route and decide to build relationships with the news or media yes, you are trying to get your product out there but also want to create a real genuine relationship. Is this wrong? Is it being approached the wrong way?

  • http://www.netwitsthinktank.com frank barry

    I don't think Chris or Justin are looking to turn down money, but i think their angle on everything is more about connecting with people along the way where as McDonals is about knowing their customers in aggregate.

    As EyeView points out, scale is an issue, but it that's not something you 'care' about then it becomes a non-issue.

    If we have tight relationships with people we'll spread the word. That's the point. Chris and Justin are building a Tribe which is where the scale begins to grow, but I bet if a person who bought a book came to the FB page or got on Twitter and started talking one of the guy's would do their best to reach back out.

  • http://www.complemar.com/ Elisha Kasinskas

    How can you NOT build a relationship in a B2B sale where: 1)Many months are spent in discussions through to the sale, 2)The purchase price is $$$$$, and 3) ~20 people are involved in the decision? We all know the addage of “we buy from people, not companies,” so without a relationship how would a sale happen? In this setting it's not just a choice- it's the *only* choice.

  • http://johnhaydon.com johnhaydon

    Sorry, Chris. I was reading your post, had a meeting coming up, and rushed the comment.

    In your post, you concluded “And always be clear on your ask.”

    Marketing folks that choose the “relationship road” with customers and prospects sometimes forget that consumers choose to have that relationship as well. If marketers assume that there is a relationship with their customers, when there really isn't, they could create problems with sales – especially, if it's done with deception.

    For example, I received an email marketing message the other day that said:

    “Hey John,

    I just wanted to personally apologize to you in advance…”

    Clearly, this was a broadcast email making a lame attempt to connect with me “personally”.

    I may have opted-in to the email list, but I never opted-in to having a relationship. And not I'm a little insulted with his attempt to automate a relationship with me…

    Does this make sense? Or am I just being too sensitive… :-)

  • Seth Hosko

    Do you think that transaction based models that don't build relationships only work for large companies who use their size as leverage? Are large companies even able to build meaningful relationships with everyone in their market?

    Sometimes I think that the role of marketing that a small or large organization takes is by default to the options that work best given the size and nature of their marketplace.

  • http://twitter.com/carolharnett Carol Harnett

    Good thoughts, as always, Chris.

    You got me thinking about something that's obvious that is not being discussed a lot lately when we think about America's health care cost crisis. Health care itself is based upon relationships…your relationship with your physician and other health care providers who you largely trust; your relationship with your employer who pays for your health care coverage who you may or may not trust relative to your and your family's health; our relationship with the federal government and our trust or lack of trust about the government's ability to provide great health care at a reduced cost.

  • http://twitter.com/startabuzz Honeybee Consulting

    I think that each method has its merits. When you're talking about a company like McDonald's (or Starbucks … whatever), the sheer numbers of people with whom they're dealing make the relationship model (as you practice it) a bit unmanageable. But, as it was said below, they've invested a lot of ducats in market research and the establishment of their brand, and I'm sure they don't want to give you an iced coffee that tastes like the Charles River. So, to that end, they have established relationships with … billions and billions of people.

    For me, the relationship approach works, because it's just the way that I am. I can't dehumanize my business; it's not me. I truly believe that the time I invest building relationships with my clients, with peers on sites like Twitter & LinkedIn (and so on and so forth), while not necessarily giving me instant ROI, will certainly help me to engender a reputation as someone who's trustworthy, hardworking and someone who DOES give a rat's anus about the people I work for and with.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Deborah-French/730322301 Deborah French

    Relationship-building is a choice, for sure… and, yes, big guys like McD can afford to skip the niceties because they know we want what they've got. On the other hand, how much more coffee (or whatever) might they sell in the long run if they did choose to build relationships? I'm inclined to buy my coffee where it's convenient and tastes good — but if I really like you I'll probably go out of my way to find you. And when you screw up, I'll be more forgiving.

  • http://scottgould.me Scott Gould

    Very good. And there are people whose comments about McD are also subtly directed at you Chris. Because, of course *you* can get people to listen to you and trust you, etc.

    But the very point is that you have labored in building trust for all these years and continually provide information that you could sell for free. It is the same kind of laboring that the rest of us need to to with our audiences. Anyone here have a relationship? Guess what, it takes work.

    Too many people expecting trust tomorrow without paying it forward. I know that I have been marketing online for a long time, but only now feel that I am cultivating those special connections.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    First, yes. Relationships aren't very scalable. But just like @comcastcares added people so that there are now many Comcast personalities on Twitter, it's my belief that we can grow armies of people who build relationships. Look at my blog community. As you mentioned the 1500 brown-nosed Broganiacs, maybe THEY are my army of @comcastcares, because maybe many of them have a story that relates to how I treated them or shared with them, or worked with them.

    One human NEVER scales. That's why interdependence rules over independence (Covey reference).

    And is it too naive to feel that “sales happen”? Believe me, when I put the hammer down on selling the books, I will be VERY explicit. But in advance of that, what if I'm just building relationships? What if I'm just getting to know some people? Even if they don't all buy, maybe they'll all add to the experience.

    A successful cafe needs to be full of happy patrons interacting.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Chris or JULIEN, in this case. Justin's a business colleague from New Marketing Labs.

    But you answered exactly the way I hope everyone answers: that YOU are the army. : )

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    You're right, of coures, Anja. I trust McDonalds not to kill me, and that it will taste reasonably the same. But expectations are definitely less than what I expect from, say, my bookseller, where I pick books that she recommends. Make sense?

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Just to be clear and restate what's above: my goal ISN'T to sell books. My goal is to build relationships. My side effect of that will be that enough books will sell to keep everyone happy. I want to kill it, but don't intend to focus on that as much as I do the longer ball game. Make sense?

    I will definitely ask my social media friends to consider reviewing the book, and I've already sent several invitations out for book reviews from the folks who matter.

    The thing is, Greg, you all know me/us. You know what we think. You might or might not buy the book, but you've got enough to actually write your own book at this point, so who I'll need help with is a bit more tricky than asking Darren or Gary to review the book. I need the not-so-social-media business people to take a look. That'll be the trick.

    I love that you're offended. Let's all get righteous together. There's no better way to diffuse that than say, “you're doing that wrong.” : )

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Well thanks. What's a little sad, to be honest, is that it's easy to stand out some times because so many others aren't honest and transparent. Isn't that sad? I don't mean to sound preachy, but if that's the bar on standing out – just common decency and honesty – that sucks.

    Thanks for joining the merry band. You're important to the experience!

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    You're right on both points.

    Now that's *really* interesting about ambient relationships. You're right. We have a sense of “feel good” from the Life is Good brand (or rather, you and I both do) because maybe we've seen some of their story, and/or we have a sense of what must go into their effort at brand value. This is practically a book. Maybe…

    Hmmm.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Actually, it's funny/sad. I get TONS of email marketing from various folks, and it reminds me of Geoff Livingston's post : http://www.livingstonbuzz.com/2009/07/05/im-jus… .

    I hate being dumped into a list. I know it takes longer, but maybe even try to target me just a little bit?

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Hi Brett–

    I think people WANT the relationship with the business owner. Take Gary Vaynerchuk. He is ALWAYS selling. He makes no bones about it. But Gary *also* tries hard to maintain relationships. In his case, he's done both.

    There is nothing wrong with selling. Selling is not a dirty word.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    Size matters. No doubt about that.

    But there are big companies like Marriott who (at least used to) care very much about the personal touch. Four Seasons in the hotel world as well.

    I've written about this in cafe-shaped conversations, which is a theory of mine that business can't scale personal relationships, but they can process-ize their cafe culture.

    Starbucks, however you see their brand, works hard to build relationships in a transactional model. At least a little. The better store managers and barristas know how to work this.

  • http://chrisbrogan.com Chris Brogan

    And you know that buzz doesn't really come from impersonal contact.

  • JamieLee

    “Hmmm….” he says, and the wheels start turning.
    ;)

    I like the concept that, perhaps, the depth of our “ambient relationship” is based on the amount of effort a company puts into their “brand value.” In this age of transparency and authenticity (and trust!), companies and individuals alike have a much greater responsibility to be who they say they are, AND prove it by their actions. With the Life is Good example, I have a sense that there are “real” people behind the company – people I'd like to hang out with, people I'd relate to. I don't know those people personally, but I feel like they are there and I am a part of what they are doing when I buy their products or attend one of their awesome charity events.

    Lots to ponder. Thanks for your two cents.

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