Who Does Ray Need to Reach

Chris I think you are asking the wrong question. I don't think you need to be asking us 'Do we have the network to solve Ray's problem?', and instead should be asking 'Is social media the right channel for Ray to use to connect with his target market?'. I don't know, but I do know that I can't get excited about any film (or really any product) until I can see the value in it. In this case, I need to be able to relate to Ray's story, and feel compelled to learn more about it.

For example, I checked his Twitterstream. You're right, he seems very active on Twitter. But is he using Twitter as a channel to discuss the movie and more importantly the THEMES that are central to the story? Because THAT would help me get more interested in the story, and him. Granted I only checked his last 40 tweets or so, but I don't see that discussion happening. Maybe he has been and I've missed it.

I get what you are saying, and in typical Chris fashion wanting to do, and that is find a way to help this guy. But, if his own efforts with social media aren't working, then I think we'd better help HIM not by pushing out 'the word' on our networks about this, but in trying to help HIM improve his efforts. That would be my advice for Ray, focus on the themes and emotions that are central to this film, and that you felt while making it. If social media has value for you in promoting For Love & Stacie, I think it would be in creating a discussion around those themes and emotions, and how they relate to your film.

Definitely another way to solve for it. The question is, who's going to step up and do? : )

Hi Chris

I read your post with interest and two questions leapt out - What's the film about and how long is it?

If Hollywood doesn't provide a review of the films story line, then I don't watch them either.

Your post could have helped him more.

Very valid point. So now you've helped me. Thank you for that.

Beyond that, any ideas for Ray, or contacts that would make sense to share?

Hi Chris

Like Tammy below, one of his bigger problems may be the pic / screen grab.

My best suggestion would be to copy 'hollywood' and spend a bit of time on creating a tempting visual.

Then just get out there and 'sell it'. As we all know, it's not enough anymore to simply build it and expect people to come. Not without any previous history in that genre anyway.

Thanks for the opportunity to help Ray though.

Jonathan.

I did a new grab and wrote a quick blurb about what it's about. Maybe that will help.

The larger question and story, however, is not about my blog post. It's the question of, "do we have a network that can solve problems?"

If we can't find Ray (who is a great guy, but who is also filling in as the case study of this example) someone to connect and learn whether the movie's of value or not to people who care about such things, then what good is a huge network?

See my point?

Hi Chris - yes I see your point (the wider one about big networks solve problems).

If you've built a strong network based on providing good quality content and analysis, then it follows that any recommendation you make 'should' be treated with the same degree of respect for the promoter...

With this particular case history - there are two problems...

1) The medium is watching a video with audio rather than just reading a post.
- it may not be possible to review video content depending on where you are and the time of the day.

2) The medium is different from what's been put forward before.
- If you've never promoted video to a network before, then it may take several attempts before response picks up.

I'd be wary that I was pitching the wrong thing at the wrong audience. Better to 'hang out' where the independent film watchers hang out? (wherever that may be).

Now perhaps that's the question we should be asking the network - where do independent film makers and viewers hang out and how can we reach them?

Great thread - thanks for the thought provoking responses Chris.

Creating an "event" that people can get excited about has been working really well for me in promoting independent movies. It's gonna sound a bit self-serving, but I've been helping independent movies gain some buzz by holding live video chats on Facebook with actors, directors, writes, etc. Just tonight we had over 90K views on an event we held with @alexavega talking about Broken Hill: http://apps.facebook.com/clickcast/brokenhill and recently, we also had over 240K views on a live chat with the director of The Cove: http://apps.facebook.com/spinnio/thecove. These events can be awesome for tapping into people who are already fans of the movie and getting them to share their enjoyment with their friends.

Not sure how to go about doing that but I'd give my last nickle for 90k views! Congrats on that!

Well, we should chat because I'm currently setting up a series of facebook community interviews with directors, actors, etc. of independent movies on Spinnio... To date, almost all of the events have had strong built-in communities (Alexa Vega among teens, The Cove among environmentalist, Humpday b/c of the Sundance buzz, The Stoning b/c it came out the week after the Iran elections, etc.), so the events have pretty much attracted big audiences on their own. However, my thought is that if I set up a series of 10 events each featuring someone passionate about their independent movie, then even movies without a huge natural following will be able to help each other generate buzz. If you're interested, follow me on twitter and I'll DM you with details as I get them.

Followed ya twenty mins ago! I'm totally down for anything, would love to partake and would be absolutely grateful for the opportunity. Ask and I'm there

Chris, your post definitely helped him out a bit, how many Twitter followers do you have?

Hey Ray (I love saying that ;-), if you're reading these comments - good luck - and NEVER give up on social media. It works, but it doesn't often work over night. Good job getting Chris to Blog and Tweet about it.

Chris: Without knowing more about the film, I wouldn't watch it; just from the photo I would not watch; they look innocent enough, but these days you never know.

I am reading! I am I am! Hope you find yourself in a dull inspired moment where you're willing to give it a view. Would love to hear what you think. =)

- Ray

I agree with the last post. The photo is not compelling enough for me to want to watch the movie. Having said that, I will watch it later after I've completed some other tasks just because Chris Brogan put it out there and if he's interested then I'll watch. My conclusion after watching will no doubt affect what I think of both the film and of Chris' judgement. And, worked with documentaries before, the best advice I can give Ray is to make sure there's an audience before production if you really want to produce something that will be seen. I'll be an audience of one - later.

Looking forward to hear what you thought Diane. =)

- Ray

Updated the post to reflect what it's about.

Here's my point to Diane and others: it's not about my blog post. The question is, do we, the community who comes here and reads the post, have the NETWORK to reach out for Ray and find someone who wants to help with the film?

And yet, it is about the blog post, as I've obviously not compelled anyone to action. : )

I dont know if anything will ever come of it but as I say elsewhere at the end of the day when you do so much to make a movie it means more than anything just to have it be seen. Its gotten more views today than any other single day and for that I am profoundly thankful. I cant tell you what it means to someone struggling like myself for anyone to be willing to help in any capacity let alone the lengths you've gone through. Please know I am beyond touched by your generosity.

Forever grateful;

- Ray

It is at least a bit about the post because of it's arrival in my morning routine, when I'm sorting information quickly. I haven't yet clicked the links because I saw the question coming from you, concerning the effectiveness of throwing it into a wider pool hoping it will sift in, rather than a perhaps more efficient quick question posed by the filmmaker or his friend, for example, "where's a great place to talk about this new film?" which I could easily answer instead of filing it in a "get back to it" place, which may or may not get a second look, despite my desire to help. I'd also suggest a more specific hook than just that he discovered something when making the film; what did you find intriguing?

I decided to go the fast route and click the twitter link. I didn't see anything about the film or your post on the first few twitter pages or his bio. It's too much work for someone like me with a short attention span and lots to do. I also looked to answer the question "which of my contacts (mostly local) would benefit him - would any?"

A local filmmaker I enjoy following, @filmblazer, is traveling around the US for "a crazy awesome filmmaking adventure in which we are writing, shooting, and screening a movie in 2 weeks in 14 different cities!" His and his girlfriend's stories and souvenir photos along the way are amusing and endearing and make me hope for their success.

Thanks so much Nettie and glad to be following you now on Twitter!

First, I like indie films, so I tend to like to see the little guy succeed in most cases.

Second, it's more an experiment. : )

The screen grab is terrible. The poster is not aesthetically pleasing. I think he needs to find friends who can do what he is not good at (i.e. graphic design). Clearly, he is better at film making than promotional material design.

The description, at least the one you gave here, is too vague. I want colorful writing, action words, hints as to what these "discoveries" are. I don't want to be told I'll come away with interesting thoughts. I'll decide when/if I watch it, if the thoughts it left me with were interesting or just mediocre and not provoking enough.

I want some hint as to what the conflict and resolution will be. Where's the twist?

So, here's what needs to happen: Ray needs to stick to film making and find friends who can help him by writing copy and designing promotional material. It's all about relationships and knowing what you're good at and what would be better done by someone with the appropriate skill set for that task.

That all makes sense Lynette, there are some decent descriptions out there but in the blog its more about "why" I released it this way than about the actual movie. By and large I'm a one man band, you can see in the credits there wasnt a lot of crew, theres actually only one scene that I didnt film myself. The poster was actually going to be part of the movie but decided to axe it, there was going to be a scene where he makes it himself so it was intentionally a little goofy. I do get your point and will think of what I can do.

- Ray

I bet you'll find in your network some people who can design a visually appealing poster and write some catchy copy. Find those talented people first before promoting your movie, so you'll have something attractive to show in your promotions.

See, I would never know what to do in making a movie. My talents do not lie there. However, I can write strong, clean copy on command. That's where I'm strong. It's why, then I needed a logo for my website, I asked a designer friend of mine to sketch something up. I then used his sketch in PS to make a nice, presentable logo. My artist friend can't write worth beans, and I can't draw anything, but when we apply our skills appropriately, we can make something that is easily marketable. You might find our social media endeavors more fruitful with better promotional material.

Hey Chris,

The biggest thing he can do is help people instantly "get" the arc of the story and a sense of what the lessons will be - maybe through a 1-2 minute trailer, or at least through some prominent quotes saying "this is worth watching". I started watching, then had to turn it off because the stalker-ish overtones were kind of creepy - and I didn't want to spend any more time with it if there was no payoff.

There is a trailer that you can view here: http://www.vimeo.com/742294

- Ray

Hey Ray. Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, now that I've seen the trailer and *think* I have a better sense of your film, I'm really really really creeped out.

That was a lot of work, but I can't think of anyone who I'd recommend this to - and really, that's the only way it would go viral (at least in a way that helps you). On the plus side, at least it's not overtly bad - as in leading to obvious mockery.

Sorry man. But the thing just takes itself way too seriously.

Understand, you really need to watch the whole thing to "get it" but I understand your reluctance. From previous screenings I know people would bring people with them to see them again and just tell them "trust me, just watch it", giving away to much can ruin it. If you ever watch the entire film you would understand. =)

Maybe. But that's like saying the target niche for this product is the niche that will like this product once they've tried it...

The question was: how do we help you find a larger audience, and that will involve *at least* convincing the non-paying audience to stick around long enough to realize this thing is worthwhile.

Its true, and obviously all wont. And I dont have the answers or wouldnt be trying so hard to figure it all out. I can only go by the the feedback I get from those who have watched and that response has been great. What it takes those who arent convinced to watch the whole thing at first blush or simply on a recommendation I'm unsure.

I think I understand the point of your post Chris. You want to know Who should watch this movie? Well I read your blurb and headed over to the site. I spent some time there reading what Ray had written and then I went over to imdb.com to see what other films he had been involved with. Then I started watching the movie to get an idea of what's going on.
While I am aware that good movies must slip between the cracks, I think you also have to be aware that studios and distributors have large numbers of people who are paid to find independently produced films and determine whether or not there is an audience for them. I do not believe that this movie is a lost classic. I do not believe that any of the professionals who declined to pick up this movie were terribly wrong.
I cannot think of a single reason to pass on a recommendation for the movie to anyone I know or am connected to, not because I am afraid of looking foolish, but because I don't believe it would be worth their time.
In a trust economy I think we have to be prepared to take financial risks with our trust, but we must also be allowed to refuse an application for a trust loan on the grounds that it's just not a sound investment.
Despite a keen interest in independent film, I would never have come across this movie if it weren't for you, Chris, and I thank you for that, but I don't believe that even the most powerful network could help this movie achieve wider distribution than it already has.

Quite interesting.

I think there's a LOT of value in your commentary, and this is the discussion I was hoping people would have.

VERY well thought out.

Sorry if you didnt enjoy it, I'm sure its not for everyone. I can only say that at screenings and in the few smaller fests its been in it has gotten a great response. That said I totally accept and respect your opinion and appreciate you taking the time to watch and post.

- Ray

Hi Chris - I am going to borrow your metaphor for this suggestion - I think Ray is missing a hub - he has got some outposts - Twitter and Vimeo - and yes there is the page on underground planet but that page doesn't tell me much about the film (I like documentaries and I want to know more), about Ray, or about what awards the film has won. The vimeo page has lots of info too - but there isn't one url I can go to (or share with others) that gives the story about the film and Ray.
As a blogger who wants to promote other peoples work - it is 100X easier if I can link directly to what I want to talk about. Just yesterday I received a press release about a cool project at a Pittsburgh hospital - I wanted to share a quick link on Twitter and add it to Delicious but after a few minutes of searching I couldn't find anything on the web about the project. So I gave up.
Ray - I would be happy to help you set up a quick blog - I can get a domain name for you and set up a wordpress blog - I think it wouldn't be too hard to pull together a site with a page about you, a page about the film, link to vimeo and then a blog section - where you can write about the film, awards, even making the film - that way when you reach out to the media - you already have a nice collection of info they can see and use to further write about your film.
I am happy to help you get set up - maybe someone else with some design experience can help with a wordpress theme? At the very least we can add google analytics and learn more about who is coming to the website to see the film.

Definitely a great perspective. I'm glad you shared it, and you're probably right. Ray needs a better "hub."

I'm working on that. The decision to post it in full was made somewhat spontaneously after so much frustration. I also wasnt sure that I would even be able to fit it all on the web. I am trying to get a site going just for it though.

- Ray

I don't care much about independent films (or films in general), so I didn't even click the link, but I DID forward this article to a filmmaker I know and also the rest of my A-Team (a group of people who use the #ATeam hashtag on Twitter to help people out), so maybe someone in my network will be made aware and able to help.

Because you're awesome, that's why.

Thanks so much.

- Ray

I like what you said.

chris was pretty clear from his post:

if you have ideas, go talk to ray, dammit, and stop wasting your time creating a conversation about solutions for ray, without ray, on chris' blog.

Chris,

I RT:ed your post on Twitter to see if any of the NYU Student Film community was willing give some constructive advice. My gut reaction is that there maybe a story here but the editing has to be way crisper with much less material. Tell the story with much less or else it becomes "Reality TV" at best. As for the goal of getting her back, the story again has to be....more carefully constructed in order to avoid being just creepy. As for successful distribution. It is way premature to pitch this using the video shown. If someone picks this up Virally at this time it will become nothing more than a curiosity. I do commend your effort to help I hope he gets more constructive feedback from the network.

Howie

With all do respect, I don't feel that trying to help on this blog or anywhere is a waist of time. I'm sure Ray can read this and join in. He is also probably deeply appreciative of getting some feedback. I think Chris invited the discussion. Wherever it happens it happens IMHO.

Best,

Howie

CORRECTION ; ) on this blog or anywhere is NOT a waist of time.

NOT sorry!

Yes I'm just an idiot today "STET" on the above. Sorry to waist everyones time especially... all just go now. ; - ( and it's okay to laugh I deserve it.

hey howard, so maybe i was a bit pissy in my comment :) but i simply thought the conversation about ray's movie should happen with ray where ray is. you also make a great point about the product itself. if the movie isn't really "in the can" then it's not ready to be marketed by any means. may the discussion continue, wherever it feels right. have a good one.

No Prob "friend" everyone gets "pissy" once in a while.

Im a little late to the party but I'm hear and reading everything everyone wrote, so appreciative of all the comments, feedback, and advice and especially for Chris putting this out there, cant thank him or all of you enough.

- Ray

Im here Howie!

- Ray

hey ray -- followed you on twitter -- never late to the party :) will shoot you an email over at your place.

Ray is here! =)

- Ray

I like what you said

It is a modern day barn raising for Ray leveraging social media. Whether it works is not as important as the fact that Ray is doing everything he can to be successful by taking action. I wrote a related post titled "Just Take Action - A Modern Day Barn Raising"

Thanks for the post Chris!

Michael Palmer Life Coach

Amy Greenlaw and I have made helping people like Ray who have independent films that need an audience and distribution, as well as festival acceptance, our focus with our company Film POP!

We've had great success so far, and have turned some of our case studies into a potential panel for SXSW. We love helping filmmakers. Social media is a key component in how we help them, but it is a delicate balance - so much in film also has to happen offline. Interestingly, I've been working with musicians over on Uptown Uncorked and find that while you would think the same techniques would work in both industries, music and film, they actually are quite different - it's fascinating.

We'll probably write a post over on Film POP! addressing the specifics behind your question regarding Ray later today (after clients, though - work first, even though you are always bringing the "interesting" factor) ;) In the post we'll address the fact that Ray seems to have vague goals, that he isn't clear WHY he is showing it for free, and the problem arising behind use of phrases like "Next Level" in this industry without strategy.

Thanks so much for posting and I'm open to anything! Would love to talk to you more about any and all ideas you may have. =)

- Ray

I don't really know if I had a role in this or not. If so, I'm just filling in the gaps, explaining how Texas got to Boston via Ellijay, GA.

I ran into Ray via someone else's tweet. I went back and forth with Ray using direct messages, and I asked him to email me some more details about his efforts. In his email, he explained what he was doing so far, and that he was struggling with social media as a way to get more attention to his film. After the email, I decided to call Ray, and ask a few more questions, I really wanted to help if I could. I truly believe in social media, but have struggled with it myself when I first got involved. I didn't have much to offer,..a few Facebook and Twitter tips, and an explanation about how social media works as I understand it. I sent him a guide that I'd written for a seminar, and I mentioned people like Chris Brogan specifically to him. Ray had mentioned his efforts to be noticed by the "big" twitter folks....and Chris was the "biggest" guy whose name I knew! I don't know you Chris, personally, and we've had only limited conversation. I will say, that in those few brief interactions, and based on the reputation that Chris has, I felt like I could pass on Ray's film link to him, and just maybe the story would interest him.......I believe I asked via direct message if he had 96 minutes to kill, on something NOT social media related, and said nothing more.
I don't know what I'm trying to convey here, only that I personally felt like YOU should see this film Chris. I felt like YOU would look into the whole story, I never imagined it would be a topic on your blog, but I'm glad that it is. This all seems very much to me, like a network that is working quite well, no?

I only know one screenwriter, so I tweeted this to him. If anyone would know, @neilochka will have some ideas! Let's see what happens!

Very good question.

I think this comes down to what we talked about when I was doing my #journchat Live and I wanted you to be apart of it.

Does a person just have a bunch of followers but NO real influence? Can an influencer not have any influence when it comes to something which is not interesting to his group?

i'm surprised that people backed away from social media being a good venue for promotion
isn't this about using non-traditional marketing?
in the past XYZ worked to get the word out
but come on people
this isn't about the movie itself

can you hack?
experiment?
brainstorm?
connect?
it works much better as a group than saying
"he should come up with more ideas."
or
"this movie isn't interesting to me"

i think this is a great thing to play with

"Make it work!"
not "How is it not working?"
not 'Can you?"
not " Gosh guys do you like the movie?"

for love of god people
go play!!

Wow, thanks Kat, really touched by your post. I can say with all honesty that I've gotten some great feedback from those who have actually watched the movie despite the screencap, graphics, whatever. For those who watched the whole thing you know it is "different", that's part of what makes it a tough sell through traditional means. Even the description has to be somewhat vague for it to work as it was intended.

My hope with social media or going viral is that most things that go viral dont always require a description. Its a simple "Hey, this is funny/great/hilarious/neat go watch it". It doesn't always have a lengthy description or much else, people will often just go watch for themselves based on someone else's praise or recommendation. If people just press play and watch For Love & Stacie generally speaking the response is even BETTER than I had hoped for.

I don't want to get defensive, everyone here has so generous in their time just to read and post. My goal with releasing it wasn't to get donations or raise money or anything other than to get my work seen, pray that it goes viral, and that that might help me raise my profile as so often viral videos do for their creators. As I say in the blog, things have been bad, being self employed as a director/shooter/editor has been rough the last few months and its been a struggle to keep my head above water. Insult to injury was that, what I felt was one of my greatest achievements to date (self funding and making a feature length movie) was completely under the radar. And to be honest if it wasnt for the amazing feedback I got from the screening and fests it was in it wouldn't have bothered me as much. If everyone that saw it thought it was horrible, well, I think I would have been more willing to lick my wounds and go home and try again. But every review was good, audiences seemed to love it. So I thought, well, maybe I wont make money but if I just put it out there and people watch they would be willing to tell others to do so.

Anyway, obviously I don't know what I'm doing, been grasping at straws ever since I made it. Truly hope that some here will be willing to take the time to watch and see for themselves whether or not it's worth it.

Thanks Kat for the post, meant so much.

- Ray

Hey Ray and Chris...

First, I think the movie looks funny, and will watch it with my wife this weekend.

But beyond that, why shouldn't we all be trying to stretch a little to see if we can make something happen in the social space that has an impact on one man's life for the better.

I can't imagine anyone who honestly can't think of one person who could help Ray. Maybe it's your kid in college who might love watching the movie, or your quirky sister's friend who is all artsy, or the guy at your work who is always looking for something to invest in.

Maybe they won't like the idea's that Ray's pitching, but maybe they will. The best thing we can do is help the connection get made, after that life takes over.

I agree with Kat - lets find out if we're up to the challenge.

Thanks for thinking on it and really look forward to hearing your thoughts after you get to see it!

I like this exercise and I like the concept of the “one man band”. Here is my take:

1. It is not about how good or bad your film may or may not be. I think it is about identifying an interested audience and going directly after them. Maybe bloggers that cover relationship topics.

2. I think that you should create a brand around your film project. For example, I have written a few books. Each book project has an associated interactive blog. Yes it will be great to sell books, but there are site visitors that posted blog entries because they were interested in the topic not because they read the book. This helps spread brand awareness and can result in a potential sale.

3. Another idea is to make the project personal to regular people by hitting the streets and getting their “For Love&Stacie” Stories and posting them on Youtube and your site.
4. You obviously have enough talent to produce a film. Sign up for sites like eHow.com and write articles on producing film and use “For Love& Stacie” as an example. Interested readers will then watch your film as a case study.

5. Last but not least, comment on film blogs, give an interesting perspective and help others whenever you can.

Basically, I’m taking my own advice for my upcoming book, ““Facebook Addiction: The Life and Times of Social Networking Addicts.” Check it out http://www.TheFacebookAddiction.com

Good Luck with your project.

-Nnamdi

Here's a few comments that I can offer. Let me start by saying that I came across Chris' post on Facebook, and since I checked it out in the evening when I had nothing much else going on, it was a good time for me to see what it was all about. (On a short side note: I'm a casual blogger who has realized that social media hasn't been the magic bullet to an easy traffic that it sometimes seems it can be, so, I'm equally curious about both the social media aspects of this as well as the actual film itself.)

Also, I'm writing this a few days after watching the film, so, please know that it did stick in my mind for some reason. :) Anyway, I think that the tricky thing about promoting this film is the necessary "no spoiler alert"....you really do have to watch the whole film to get the true effect. Maybe play more on the unexpected ending part....I was curious about "where's he going with this" and "how's this going to end?". Yet I see, too, that for those not interested in the "issue" per se, they might not come away appreciating time spent on a topic that wouldn't have interested them from the get-go.) This is more than a love story. After the fact, it's interesting how the ending can seem predictable even though it was surprising at the time. I liked the trailer, I thought it was an accurate representation of the film.

Instead of this movie being viewed as just "entertainment", it would be great to have a post-viewing discussion group about it.

The "reality" aspects of this film are particularly intriguing. I think this work is a great "business card" and I would definitely recommend Ray to anyone looking for a filmmaker...I don't have to love the topic he covered to see he can do good work. My only suggestion would be to maybe edit it down some...curious thing, though, whenever I fast forwarded a bit, I'd always have to rewind to catch up on what I missed.

Hope these comments help a bit. Sorry that I don't have an appropriate network to recommend it to. It seems that the only filmmakers I know are in the same boat as Ray, trying to get noticed, too. Best of luck to you, Ray, and to all struggling artists. (And definitely keep us posted on any new work you have coming out, Ray.)

Wanted to post a brief update. I have yet to follow through on many of the suggestions, not that they weren't taken to heart. Believe when I say I'm willing to try most everything. I have done some more graphic work, changed the thumbnail on the movie itself hoping that maybe the new image combined with the some quotes and praise from reviews may convince people to give it a chance. I also added a description of the movie to the top of the blog. By the feedback here it was clear to me that many wanted to know a bit more about the film itself instead of just the blog that said "why" I posted but not a lot about "what" I had posted.

I also got a domain name that now points directly to that blog. http://www.forloveandstacie.com

The Wordpress link was just to long and difficult for people. If it ever picks up steam and I find the resources I may try to get a full site for it but at present this will have to suffice.

I do want to thank everyone here for taking the time to comment. I do still hold out hope that some of you that weren't inspired to click Play and actually watch it may find a moment of inspiration to give it a try. I'm sure most are already tired of me asking for help spreading it around so I'll not ask you for that, but you just watching it for your own entertainment would mean the world.

Thanks so much Chris for taking a risk by posting this. I am more than touched by both you and your readers willingness to try to roust up some support and guild me in the right direction. Not least of all Bob Andelman, aka Mr Media (@andelman) for having me on his show yesterday DIRECTLY as a result of your post here. If anyone wants to they can give it a listen here: http://tinyurl.com/mavxks

Thanks everyone, crossing my fingers I can still make this work and trying hard to implement many of your suggestions, I'm not giving up yet!

- Ray