Chris, I’ve said this before, but I think it’s a shame that the Podcamp rules were changed to allow a charge for registration. Yes, fundamentally it’s still a very open event but I think the charge changes the audience expectation that they should be GETTING something for their money, rather than that they should be GIVING something for the opportunity to come for free and have the benefit of hearing from and being around so many smart and interesting people.

I think the problem, as you mention, is not with building greater and greater numbers but in setting audience expectation. Success for events like Podcamp, IMHO, should absolutely not be about numbers of attendees. Personally I’d be just as happy to see Podcamps in particular cities shrink or grow year over year depending on the interest of the community, rather than it being a constant building.

Anyway, doubt I’ll make it to Boston this year (NOT because of the registration fee but the timing doesn’t look great for me at the moment) but I do hope you guys have an amazing time, and I would still encourage anyone to go. It’s certainly not a question of value — I know I’m got more value from Podcamps over the years than I can calculate.

Hi Jay–

We’re not looking to build numbers. In fact, we’re hoping they drop to somewhere between 200-300, which would put it more in size and scope to Toronto’s two fine events.

$50 just says, “I am REALLY coming when I say I’m coming,” and helps us manage the “I support this idea, but had something come up.”

Sorry we’ll miss you in Boston.

Chris — I totally get the commitment thing, it’s just a shame there isn’t another way this could be dealt with, but I do understand.

There’s a _small_ chance of me getting to Boston but summer weekends are precious commodity, particularly with the little one in the picture. Either way hope to see you again soon!

Frankly, I’m impressed that you guys can pull this off for just $35K.

I don’t think a charging $50 discredits the concept of an un-conference in any way.

I think the fee is absolutely reasonable. In fact, had there been a similar fee for Toronto’s Podcamp this year, I may not have been so quick to sign up without first checking my schedule properly, ensuring I wasn’t double booked, etc. Instead, I was one of those who had to cancel at the last minute (sorry). Hopefully the fee will help to avoid some of that (and at the same time cover off some of the expenses).

The value I got from just attending one Podcamp FAR outweighs a $50 registration fee.

Keep up the good work - I am seriously considering attending!

Because tweets sometimes just don’t do an argument justice…

I can completely understand the reasoning behind charging for the conference, and I think it’s a fair price to ask. If participants don’t think the conference is worth $50, they won’t go. Easy enough.

I just hope a similar pod* unconference pops up in the Boston/New England area. There’s so much discussion in regards to bringing new media to new groups of people, and both you and Chris have done a wonderful job with helping to make our community larger. For the people wondering what podcasting and new media are about, or for those who are just casual participants that want to learn more, I fear they won’t be willing to join in the conversation if there is a moderate entry fee.

I think it will change the tone of the conference. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Probably a little of both… but it’s definitely different.

The beauty is, ANYONE can run an event to teach people how to use podcasting tools. Anyone. You don’t need my permission.

You need our permission to call it PodCamp, but it’s just a name.

Boston Media Makers is a GREAT event. I highly recommend it. Don’t like that either? Make your own. It’s easy (not). : )

We’re doing something unique at PodCamp, but the unique comes from how we encourage participation, what the crowd seems to want to cover for topics, and several other little touches. We’re not the only game in town.

I hope you come.

Chris -

I think you are doing exactly the right thing. Please send anyone who whines about it and says you are betraying the spirit of Podcamp over to my office.

I also respectfully disagree that this changes the Give/Get balance. Anyone who gets the community thing knows they are meant to share their wisdom with the crowds. This argument doesn’t hold water.

It occurs to me that when Jeff and Bryan Person ran the social media breakfast in Boston, we all forked over our $20. No one complained about that. There it was entirely evident that the money was covering the room and the food. Do folks who claim you are betraying the spirit of Podcamp think that soda, coffee and lunch are left by leprechauns the previous evening? That we have achieved nirvana and the Internet is free (like beer)?

Go for it, Chris and good luck!

Well, this certainly puts the stake in the whole “unconference” philosophy. Once again we see how something great is eventually turned into a money-making enterprise that serves the few instead of the many. I have been fighting this same battle with nearly every tech event here in LA.

So $35K for an unconference? This is absolutely ridiculous. No one says there has to be breakfast, coffee, snacks, lunch, dinner, free beer at an unconference. We are there to converse and learn. If the price of these items to so onerous, simply don’t provide them. Ask people to bring something to share, bring water, etc. That fact is, we have come to see an unconference as a big party, with all the associated accoutrement and the price keeps going up. Give us space, intelligent people and a few borrowed projectors and we will have a conference. The rest is absolutely superfluous.

Maybe if we turned it into less of a party, fewer people would flake out on it, since fewer people would sign up to begin with. Size is the curse of an unconference and Boston PodCamp clearly proves that. Strip it to the bare, and useful, parts and a PodCamp will shine. Overload it with fees, food and flakes and it dies, crushed under its own weight.

Douglas

i’ll be paying $50 to attend this year
it’s $50 for that kind of venue / experience / food /
no one is making $ off of this thing
so why would people be complaining?

or don’t charge
and make folks pay for their food / drinks / hired help / stationary / internet etc on site
make volunteering mandatory
they’ll cry for you to only charge $50 next time.

folks like to walk in the door
and la dee da
everything is all ready for them
then they complain if it isn’t to their liking

i support you
because i think it was a good move

[...] Chris Brogan writes a long blog post explaining why the next PodCamp Boston will require a $50 registration fee. [...]

Kat,

you seem to have some contempt for the people who attend unconferences, i.e. “they’ll cry for you to only charge $50 next time.” and “everything is all ready for them then they complain if it isn’t to their liking”

While I am sure there are some obnoxious people, I hardly think those phrase describe the majority of people at an unconfernence.

Also, if you think people complain a lot about a free event, imagine how much they are going to complain when they have paid $50 to attend. Money changes everything, especially expectations and people’s expectations for food, cleanliness, Internet access, services, venue, etc are going to go up dramatically.
.

Douglas - moneymaking? We have an open ledger. It’s absolutely NOT money making. We’re raising well over 2/3 of the money from sponsors within our community who want to talk to engaged people. $50 has nothing to do with the money. It has everything to do with making sure people have an excellent facility, with great opportunities to collaborate, in a setting that we think will work out nicely. The venue, as displayed in the open ledger (a requirement of PodCamps), is the lion’s share of the cost.

COULD we do it somewhere free or really cheap? Yep. But again, people aren’t footing that bill. Our sponsors and community are.

$50 is a commitment to attend.

Douglas - I think you’re dead on about how unconferences have turned into a sort of Spring Break for folks. I don’t know about you, but what limited time and money I have each year for conferences and events needs to go towards events that will teach me things, that will help me to improve my game and what I do. Spring Break does none of that.

It’s also worth pointing out that the original UnConference, Foo Camp, was not only a paid event, it was also invitation only. It’s not how the door is set up that defines an UnConference. It’s what happens once you walk through the door, and what you bring with you.

@Penn In fairness Chris, I think most of us think of BarCamp as the “real” beginning of the unconference movement. FooCamp was only ‘un’ insofar as they didn’t have a set agenda but I _think_ you’d agree that BarCamp (in part in reaction to the closed nature of FooCamp) is the much more comparable model to Podcamp, and generally I believe BarCamps are still free, correct?

> Douglas - moneymaking? We have an open ledger”

Unfortunately, an open ledger still applies to a money-making event. If PodCamp were a 501 (c) (3) Non-profit I would be willing to cut a bit more slack on this, but the fact is, there will be money left over from sponsorship and attendance fees that someone will need to manage.

It might be a hard line, but money is being taken into a system that is not, explicitly non-profit, so I have to question it.

Re: hristopher S. Penn

Christopher, I think that any sort of admission fee puts an artificial limit on who is welcome to attend. It starts down the slippery slope of controlling attendance to controlling content and I think this is antithetical to the unconference ideal. It is an ideal, to be sure, but one I think we should strive towards. Paid conference quickly turn into a feedback loop where the topics and speakers reflect a progressively narrower viewpoint until it is nothing but a huge echo chamber “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

As you said, “It’s what happens once you walk through the door, and what you bring with you.”

If you can’t get through the door in the first place, what does it really matter.

All great points, everyone. I’m excited about the conversation.

Of course, it’s also fun to be considered potentially evil and on a slippery slope BEFORE the event, and based on one factor. You could put it to a vote, I guess.

Then again, Penn might be voted evil instead of misunderstood. : )

Honestly? that sounds about right.

I suppose the argument could be made for a $50 refundable space reserve deposit - as in, if you come, we give it back, if you don’t come, you lose the deposit because that space would’ve been used by someone else… but honestly, that would be a headache.

I’d easily pay $50 if I were close enough to go to it. You’d pay that much to attend a seminar through your local parks & rec or thru a ‘free university’ program.

Makes sense since you clearly aren’t trying to profit from it, but are trying to make certain that those RSVPing will actually be vested in attending.

Chrises: Did you guys ever consider that maybe the real problem with Podcamp Boston 2 was that you tried to grow an event 300-400% in one year, and perhaps it just wasn’t meant to be that big that quick (if ever)?

Also, and I don’t have any research to back it up, but I’d suspect there’s a curve on attendance for free events based on number of registrants vs. sign-up so that as you increase. If you run a free event where 20 people sign-up, I suspect you usually get pretty damn close to 100% attendance. There are probably diminishing returns for more and more sign-ups, no?

One of my co-workers who came to Podcamp Toronto used to help organize free events for clients, and she was quite impressed that we were around 60% for a weekend event with 400ish sign-ups. She said she would have counted on it being 50 or less.

[...] Brogran and Christopher S. Penn offer their takes here and here respectively as to why PodCamp Boston 3 is charging $50 this year per attendee. While that [...]

On a related note, I am finding the disturbing trend of punishing everyone for the transgressions of a small group.

If people aren’t showing up, figure out at way to punish them for that behavior instead of punishing everyone. Wait list them for future conferences, publish their names publicly as scofflaws, but don’t make all of us pay, both literally and figuratively, for their behavior.

@Douglas

i can see how contempt was read into my comment
it was certainly not intended
it was referring only to those who will complain the loudest and take up the most energy
*not* the majority to be sure
if that were the case
i wouldn’t support my husband in all of this

as a note i think a lot of your points are very valid
and i’m sure a compromise nwill come out of all of this
i have faith in the people who care about podcamp
yourself included

@Douglas- With all due respect, how is 700 people saying they are attending and no showing punishing the majority for the actions of a few? And why is the punishment term being used at all? Why isn’t attending Podcamp seen as being a privilege- something worth a pretty minimal investment? People pay a lot more to attend SXSW, PME and other conferences. And moreover, Podcamp has been a great way to try new ways to run a conference- we mash up a broader audience than many conferences, and thats’ the strength at the core.

Moreover, life is not free. Work is hard. Without knowing that the community actually cares, that attendance is predictable- do you really expect organizers to put the event together, year after year, for your convenience, without some small investment from the community in terms of showing thatthey value the experience?

@Whitney

Simply this…deciding to charge a fee for all, because some do not show up, is punishing those who do (and have) sign up and show up. How is this fair in any way, shape or form? It is a punishment, because everyone is being forced to pay for something that was (and by all rights) ought to be free…or the conferences should be forked into PodCamp and PodCamp Pro so motives and agenda are clearly established.

Conferences such s SXSW, PME etc have ALWAYS been a fee event. Turning PodCamp into a fee event is what sticks in my craw. If you want to create a business out of conference organization, then do that from the start, under a different name. Charging for the event, especially $50, which is far above a token fee, turns PodCamp into a business in my opinion. It is the first step towards the eventual dissolution of open-sourced PodCamps, as organizers all around the world see this is a validation to begin charging. I can also guarantee that other organizers out there won’t be nearly as circumspect about making money from the event.

As for value, the “value” that attendees provide is their attendance, their talks and their knowledge. To determine that money is the only investment that counts is absurd and shows contempt for the attendees and all that volunteer to make the event possible.

Finally, whenever I hear organizers of any free event complaining about how difficult and time consuming organizing is, I ask them, “Then why do it?” If you are truly getting nothing out of organizing, why continue? How does a $50 entrance fee gain you any more benefit? You’re not getting paid, right? Does it make it any easier to organize the event? Probably not as now you have the burden of handling money, refunds, comps, complaints, etc. Charging a fee for attendance doesn’t seem to alleviate any of the organizational issues, it only adds more.

There seems to be an idea that the only people who matter at a PodCamp are the organizers. While I certainly laud their work, we are in a very dangerous area when we fail to recognize that the value of PodCamp comes for EVERYONE involved, not just the organizers.

Sure I’ll pay your $50 dollars, Uncle Money Bags. Just don’t complain to me when I show up to the registration desk with my sacks full of pennies.

Laura Fitton said it best on CC Chapman’s blog after PodCamp Boston 2 last year. Reprinted:

–

The event isn’t, and from what little I understand, never was FREE. In a way, no event ever is. It is subsidized by sponsors and by volunteer hours. You attend for free, because somebody else paid your way. Simple as that.

I think opening up the option for it to be a nominal fee, or a pay what you want, or some other locally-derived setup, and oriented largely towards keeping attendance expectations (and resulting volunteer hours) in line with reality, is 100% reasonable.

While anticipating an event that huge, the volunteer corps of organizers really had to bust their guts. Hard. Long hours, much stress. Value their time at a nominal rate of $10 or even $5 an hour, and you see that a very small group paid hundreds and thousands for the rest of us to have the event for free.

That quote is disingenuous at best, Christopher. ie. Free vs. free to attend.

I don’t think anyone ever denied that it took money to put on PodCamp, hence the signs and thank you’s to sponsors, etc.

To a college student (or anyone with less disposable income) though PodCamp was free to attend. Now it isn’t. It has absolutely nothing to do with how much money it takes to put the show on.

We are basically saying, to a lot of people, “you aren’t wanted here.”

I find that horribly sad.

@Douglas: Then we agree to disagree, sir. Start a conference of your own, based on what you believe should be the experience. Sara Streeter did it with NewBCamp in Providence, and has started something great, inspired by PodCamp but not PodCamp. Chris Hambly in the UK did it, with MediaCamp Bucks based on his interpretation of PodCamp but not PodCamp. Justin Kownacki did it with BootCamp PGH.

The template is out there, the process is transparent - start your own conference, and tell us where to find it.

[...] Follow the great on-going discussion here [...]

anytime i wanted to attend an event
but didn’t have the price of entry
i found another way in

offer to raise X amount of dollars from a sponsor
have your friends sponsor you
do something fun and creative damn it!
be more creative than i am at this hour

if you want in
you’ll get in
the excuse of “I don’t have the cash”
with no other offer of a solution?
that’s lame :)

@Douglas - the logic is wrong. Sorry. Charging money doesn’t equal turning it into a business.

Ripped off from Dictionary.com:

1. an occupation, profession, or trade: His business is poultry farming.
2. the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit.
3. a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

Nope. This event isn’t my occupation. It’s not an attempt to make a profit. It’s not a profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

You’re welcome to disagree. You’re even welcome to run PodCamps for free, provided you follow the six rules.

But I’m all done talking about whether or not it’s a business. My business is not PodCamp.

Respectfully.

Chris and Douglas, you certainly know how to generate debate.

Never been to an unConference. Just got internet to my living quarters and may start blogging any day now. :) I have however organized conferences, a couple of them for non-profit organizations…. and I have to wonder how you folks managed to run your (un)conferences without registration fees.

Charging $50 does not tell people that they are not wanted at PodCamp. Fifty dollars is not a punishment, it’s a commitment - a small contribution to what sounds like a very rewarding event.

While it might be convenient for attendees not to pay, logistically it makes sense to be able confirm the number of people attending an event…. and the truth is people are more likely to make a firm commitment when a fee is involved.

It’s not about bigger being better. If you have smaller audience/discussion group you won’t want to book the ballroom. It’s not about making money or saving money or running a business, it’s about being better organized and accountable. Not that there’s ANYTHING wrong with making money, saving money or running a business (by the way when did business become a dirty word?).

If organizers are relying on funding or logistical support from sponsors, then an accurate attendance forecast is needed again.

If participants can’t afford $50, then as Kat suggested there are ways to raise funds. We are talking about people involved in social media right? They can reach out and find their own sponsor(s). It’ll make for an interesting project and blog post / podcast. And it’s another way to contribute to the event.

A couple of weeks ago here in Afghanistan the first ever blogging workshop was held. It was a two day event in Kabul and organizers had to overcome obstacles such as electricity shortages. They may not charge $50 to attend but they do fundraise and ask for donations for things such as generators. Most Afghans can’t afford to go to internet cafes. Fifty bucks is too much to ask in a country where the average annual income is about $400. In North America? Not so much.

Please feel free to sponsor a PodCamp Boston scholarship.

http://www.podcampboston.org/2008/04/16/podcamp-boston-scholarships/

[...] a registration fee of $50 , meant to defray the cost of the venue. I will be helping Chris Penn and Chris Brogan organize Podcamp Boston 3, just as I did with Podcamp Boston 2, even though I live outside of [...]

Hey guys! I was chatting with Whitney yesterday (in person! whoo hoo!) about this. Maybe we could have avoided the controversy if we offered memberships to Podcamp Boston. It’s a dot org, so memberships are expected! 50 buck a year membership gets you free admission to podcamp, automatic yearly registration, etc. etc. I can come up with a list of other doable benefits (like a business contact directory etc.) that would last the year in ten minutes. Heck, we could charge $75 for such a valuable membership! And if there is any money left over we could set up a scholarship program for Podcamp Boston attendance. What do you think of that?

@purplecar - the membership makes sense if we’re seeking the money to make money, but ultimately, the money is symbolic of a commitment to attend the event. Meaning, if you pay your $50 membership, but still don’t show up, we still don’t have a count of who will really (likely) be there. Make sense?

So, the scholarship for attendance idea is a good one, but the mechanism has to exist such that we ensure we know who’s attending. Make sense?

Yup, makes sense, but we can use technology to tell if people are going to come to the event, too. Also, the sponsors are guaranteed to get their name in front of members whether or not the members show up, because there will be mass emails, mailings, etc. to members. It almost doesn’t matter if they show up then, does it?

[...] Brogan and Penn, two of the founders of the original Podcamp event have announced that Podcamp Boston 3 [...]

I definitely understand charging to validate attendance, but who can afford such a high rate? It has now become a barrier to entry fee. You may not see it that way, and I know in my heart that you mean well, but after plane ticket, hotel, and etc., another $50 would just end it. And even if I lived in the area, what if I was low income? How about charging something in the area of $10 so that those with limited funds can also attend? Or I can save my $10 for the next Tech Crunch party? $50 is just too steep a change from free. Maybe next time kick people in the groin when they leave so they feel that $50 for no groin kick will seem like a bargain.

First off, kudos to Chris and Chris for charging and seeing where that goes. If that improves the rate of sign-ups to participants showing up, those metrics/data will help lots of other folks when planning in the future.

That said, I don’t think Podcamps should charge. I think any amount of money could be seen as a barrier to entry and I think the event being free makes it unique.

I also think we should brown bag it to Podcamps from now on. If you come, bring your own chow or we’ll tell you where you can eat nearby. That’s what we’re doing with PodCampNYC2 this year as getting meals for everyone would cost at least $10K and we also face the same risk of lots of no-shows and wasted food. We have about 950 people signed up to participate at this point. If 50 or 1,000 people show up, our costs remain the same and our only waste will be excess schedules on paper we can recycle.

I think a big issue here is about getting sponsors for a Podcamp. When organizers find local sponsors to get involved they’re moving the Podcamp model forward by reaching to new folks outside of the existing community. Knowing that Chris and Chris are not eschewing sponsors, if 500 paying folks show up, that’s $25K. There’s a possibility that participants alone could eventually cover the budget, and then sponsor money wouldn’t be needed. I think not having sponsors demonstrate their commitment/interest in the podcamp community by feeling that they’re truly making the event happen would be a loss. If they supplement other fees, their value may not be considered as high.

Finally, I’d like to request something-can we agree that if the size of an event doesn’t make it a Podcamp, can we also agree it can be large (500 or over) and still have value? We had great feedback from last year’s PodCampNYC which had about 1,000 people show up. If size truly doesn’t matter, please let’s not prejudge an event that has numbers of any size one way or the other.

John C. Havens
Lead Organizer,
PodCampNYC

John- absolutely right. Large PodCamps aren’t bad. You proved that last year for sure.

For our event in Boston, and not as a statement to all PodCamps the world around, we’re looking towards something just a little smaller, but not because more is bad. We just have a preference.

And your other points were also valid, but I wanted to answer the one that directly impacts NYC2, which should be a hoot.

Thanks, Chris.

Hmmm, $50 for an open discussion and unlimited sharing and collaboration or $600+ for lectures and people pushing their latest book on you? I think podcamp Boston will be a better value as compared to BLC which is going on at roughly the same time and in the same city. Sorry if I sound jaded. I have been to many conferences this year. Podcamps make the conversation democratic. In other words, they tend to act like a f2f version of the web. What could be better?

There is no substitute for walking in another’s shoes. The peeps who do the lion’s share of work putting on an event have a unique perspective that those of us on the outside can listen to and understand.

Likewise, “market forces” also have a role to play; how many people will be put off and away by a fee?

On a bigger scale, can we start returning to financial transactions that are imbued with value not usury, and reclaim that part of the conversation for ourselves as well? I am interested in that.